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30 April

HPCES’ discussion on Christianity

Chai Joo Siong (Singapore)

So now the whole of Singapore knows that a pastor had died after praying for a SARS patient and surely a lot of people will be questioning Why? Why? Why? Instead of scratching our heads and become fearful ourselves, let us take hold of this opportunity to point others to Christ and share with them what TRUE LOVE is all about.

From this SARS saga, I believe the enemy is also trying to create division among Christians: one group believes in walking by faith and another group believes we ought to exercise wisdom. Instead of pointing fingers at one another, let us be reminded of John 13:34-35 which says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Do share this… a real powerful testimony to share

Wang Yi (China)

Let’s suppose everyone on the earth becomes a Christian, and each of them knows what “TRUE LOVE” is, as patched up in this article.

Now one of them gets infected with SARS, let’s call it A.  According to our assumption, all the others will stand out to show their “TRUE LOVE” and lay down their life for A.

In that case only A will survive (this is under the assumption that once someone lay down his life for you, you will survive, as hinted by the author.  To be frank I think it’s nonsense.  The patient this pastor prayed happened to survive, that’s it).  All the others enjoy their time in paradise.

Now you see why government quarantined SARS patients.  Christians should blame the government to prevent them from showing their so-called “TRUE LOVE”.

And I’d like to ask why those most pious Spanish colonialist never thought twice when they commit holocaust to native Americans?  (dun be so history-illiterate to argue they were no Christians)

It’s very interesting to observe how some Christians run all out to patch up their (maybe with good will) humbug.

Last Saturday I was watching Discovery at home when a Christian neighbor visited me and wasted me over one hour trying to convert me.  Finally I found patience and hint won’t get her out of my house, so I asked her what was “one day” defined in the Bible when the God created the universe.

“The period between dawn and dusk loh”, she replied.

“OK I appreciate your definition.  When did the God created sun, moon and stars?”

“It’s on the Thursday”

“Then isn’t it commonsense that dawn and dusk comes with sun?  Before the God created sun, how could he tell whether one day starts and ends?”


I smiled to her viciously and waved her off gracefully.

The second day she came again, claiming that she misinterpreted the Bible: the God created the universe in seven days, we are still in the seventh day, the so-called Holiday.

“Oh I see” I am so happy to watch her funny play.  “So the God and the human beings are under different calendars.  We have two holidays a week while he’s always in holiday, isn’t it?”

“You can take it this way”, she proudly answered.

“Then I have another question.  Is it true that after Eve ate the fruit the God swore that he would add pain to her delivery?”

“It’s more or less in that way.  That’s what we call sin”.

“So you admit that the God is still working during holiday to increase pain to the pregnant women?  If you dun call it ‘work’, do you think it’s the God’s free time hobby to add pain to others?”


“And a cow also suffers when it delivers.  What’s the sin of a cow?  It ate another fruit from another snake?”


“The God created light on the first day but sun on Thursday.  Then what’s that light?  Laser?”


This took place on last Sunday.  I believe this lovely Christian woman has spent last week busy looking for new pretext.  I am joyfully awaiting it.

And I have lots more, which is enough to extend until the last weekend of my life.  Therefore I dun think I would be fortunate enough to join His disciplines…

(You will find an anti-Bible book at my homepage with all these contradictions)

Wang Yi in reply to Lee Tuck Koon (Singapore)

Seems this guy Wang Yi is always trying to irritate certain group of ppl:-)

> - How the patient survived, whether it's by chance or
> by the prayer of the pastor, is impossible to verify
> now. The only way to verify is to ask God in Heaven.

It's Christians' preference to take groundless gossip (BTW, the origin of the word "gossip" is god-sib, meaning god's folks) for granted, for God's sake.  I highly respect such preference, since I have been taught by my communism government to respect all decent religions since I was born.

Nevertheless, such behavior, which quite a lot Christians love to practice, as to peddle their unverifiable points to free-thinkers, is far above my appreciation.  I dun care what opinion you hold, but why do you bother to convince me with it?

For the same reason that I respect Christians, I respect homos (I am not comparing you to gay).      It's their choice and it's their life style and it's nothing wrong.  However, I noticed that gays never perturb you so much by attempting to persuade you to adopt their sexual orientation.

With all respect, I do prefer it if my neighbor is a lesbian.

> And I'd like to ask why those most pious Spanish
> colonialist never thought twice when they commit
> holocaust to native Americans?  (dun be so
> history-illiterate to argue they were no Christians)
> -do not confuse the failings of a group of people with
> the failings of God and Christianity.

Merely a group of people?

Let's take Buddhism as an example.

Can you imagine a Buddhism country, say, Thailand, to invade others and commit genocide to their people? (Thailand and Burma had long time skirmishes on their border, but there never had been any large-scale conflicts before the British took Burma and provoked attacks)

Can you imagine Buddhists wage a crusade war against Muslims? (Islamic
influence also, as it did in Balkan and Spain, eroded into north India,
which is a traditionally Buddhism region)

Can you imagine different Buddhism denominations fighting so-called religious war against each other, like what happened in Germany after Martin Ruther's religious reform?

And can you imagine Thai king would ever burn heretic, as what happened again and again all over Europe?

One more detailed instance: Tibet used to be very aggressive, having conquered China's capital twice in mid Tang dynasty.  Then Buddhism entered Tibet and it almost instantly gave up military invasion, and later even integrated into China.  So was Mongolia.

This is to show you that religions do differ greatly in its way influencing politics.  Just like it's your conviction that there is an omnipotent God, it is mine that Christians as a group slays more ppl than any other in history. 

And don't forget those who hunt, ferried and sold the Africans to America were all Christians, the reason being that they had almost extinct the native Americans, especially in Latin America by the Catholic Spanish, and they needed labor to exploit the resources.

And in your Southeast Asia, among the 10 countries in ASEAN, only one survived from  Christian colonists because of a compromise between two balanced rivals.  (BTW, this compromise later indirectly impaired China: since British couldn't head east of Burma and access China from the south, it had to encroach from the southwest, i.e., Tibet.  This buried a fuse leading to the war between India and China in 1962)

I beg your notice that I am not saying Christians are all murderers, war freaks or violent bigots.  (Most of my friends in S'pore are Christians,
some from S'pore Bible College.  They are very kind.  Even my Christian
neighbor, I believe, also acts from good will.  I sing in a pro-Christian choir.  And at this time I am listening to a CD of Berlioz's Messe Solennelle)  However, I do feel obliged to say it has a higher rate than other religions, from a historical view.

When you achieve your personal inner peace, never forget how many non-Christians suffered from the brutality committed by a large number of Christians.

> - There are lots of apparent contradictions in the
> Bible. Note that these contradictions are impossible
> to defend. Many Christians felt compelled to defend
> these contradictions because they mistakenly thought
> that the Bible in its present form is complete and
> flawless. Yes, you are getting me right. I am saying
> the Bible is not perfect. The Word of God is perfect
> but not the Bible. Why? The Bible in its present form
> (be it the NIV, KJV, NKJV, etc.) was translated by
> biblical scholars who relied on ancient manuscripts.
> Manuscripts which have been written as early as 5000
> years ago. Some of these manuscripts would have faded
> and have to be rewritten. Mistakes are bound to arise
> in those 5000 years of writing, rewriting,
> translation, etc.

I appreciate it a lot that you are not among those who attempt to defend
the infinite flaws in Bible.  This is consistent with your education background as well as admirable integrity.

Yet I'd like to analyze why there are so many ppl who always try to do such nonsense.  Historically all religions are used to control the mass.  The cleric needs to patch up their ridiculous stories so as to make ppl, mostly illiterate then, believe it.  Christianity, as its counterparts all over the world, shares the same feature.  Just like other religions, it never encourages the mass to topple their regime, unless the cleric wishes to seize the power.  However, sth special is that it encourages aggression.  Therefore, colonists hold Bible when they conquers, and use Bible afterwards to cease any fight-back from the local.

Of all religions, only Christianity has this thing called missionary.  Besides their religious responsibility, missionaries act much more important roles such as collecting info of a new land before a war, instigating conflicts leading to a war and anesthetizing the conquered after the war. 

On March 13th, 1849 a Britain Navy warship Chiltern arrived outside Shanghai. It hid on the sea and sent three missionaries to QingPu port of Shanghai. These gentlemen distributed pamphlets of Christianity in the busy harbor, and of course made some disorder in a then small county: sailors crowded around them asking for the booklets.  Then all in a sudden this guy called W. Lockhart used his cane to hit ppl and slashed their cheeks, who fought back.  Now they had an excuse.  The warship charged in and took Shanghai port, levy 50 silver coins from each ship.  To those who refused to pay, it shoot and blocked them in the harbor.  If you dun call this pirating, I dunno your definition of pirates.

Another example, in 1862 France set up the Church of Notre Dame des Victories in TianJin.  It has a orphanage, which is derived from Europe.  It might be an European tradition to desert baby, but definitely
not a Chinese one.  This orphanage couldn't get any orphans to adopt, so they announced to buy kids.  This induced local rascals (note that two
of them later got arrested were both converted Christians) to abduct kids and sold to them.  However, the foolish management in the orphanage caused shocking amount of death.  These missionaries simply wrapped the corpses with grass-carpet and buried them shallowly at night, which soon dug out by wild dogs.

You guys could imagine what a miserable view when local Chinese saw the bodies of kids being rent by beasts in the morning fog......

Then on June 21st, 1870, Tianjin citizens gathered and appealed to local government to make investigation into this issue, doubting that the church bought kids and kill them to make drug (this is not true of course).  The governor called in the French consul, whose name was Henri Victor Fontanier, to the city hall to discuss this issue.  During discussion this gentleman suddenly pulled out his pistol, shoot the governor and killed his servant.  The angered citizens then hit this Frenchman to death, which led to France threatening to start a war against China.  The war was narrowly escaped cos Napolean III was defeated by Prussia in 1871.

Two years ago the Pope conferred hundreds of missionaries who lost their
most precious lives in China as "Martyrs".  I believe quite a lot of them should actually be conferred by their own governments for their successfully making pretexts for invasion.  I could provide you with piles of evidences if you'd like to challenge this claim, as near as in NUS Library.  Let's find out what kind of shabby stuff some "Martyrs" were!!

> If someone asks me why I am so sure there is God, I
> challenge that person to explain to me how did life on
> earth come about.
We dunno yet how SARS came about doesn't mean God creates SARS to kill human beings. 

Lee Tuck Koon

First of all, I have to say that I am impressed with Wang Yi's knowledge and passion for his views. Passion is a rare commodity nowadays. Many people I meet is sian sian sian.

While his email is very long, I believe these are his basic points:

1. He does not believe in God, but neither is he able to explain how life on earth came about if there is no

2. He mentioned a long list of atrocities committed by Western powers. These atrocities are committed by
people who call themselves Christians, but that by itself does not mean that all Christians are
evil/greedy murderers. The fact that some mainland Chinese are liars (witness the blatant lies by the
Chinese Health Minister and Beijing mayor) does not mean all mainland Chinese are liars.

3. There will always be black sheep in any society, in any religion. Christianity is no exception.

4. He claimed that the people whom the pastor prayed for survived by chance, not by the grace of God. While I am unable to back up my claim that the people survived because of the prayer, he too is unable to
back up his claim that the people survived by chance.

5. The existence of God may be unverifiable. But so too is the non-existence of God. Why then are
Christians so keen on spreading the good news of Lord Jesus Christ? Definitely not because there is a
tangible benefit in terms of money. It is because we Christians do care and see it as our duty to obtain
salvation for our friends. It is definitely not an easy job - and we often get rejected, sometimes
humiliated and frequently laughed at.

It is not easy to believe in God - I too was a non-believer once. There will be people who won't
believe. Some things are not meant to be.

Cheng Yong Leong (Singapore)

Cheez, this is an awful long email. A smart person like you should put your time to better use, e.g.
contributing to society.

Strange. You are the one imposing your opinions over the email your obession in criticising the behaviour
of some christians. Naturally, people has to jump their defence to retort.

An example: If I criticse about China trying to spread communism (akin to missionary) during the 50s-70s in the southeast asia including Singapore (when Deng Xiao Ping came to visit SE Asia himself) and China is also guilty of a part in Vietnam and Korea war, your rebuttal will be swift and emotional.Just an

I am confused with the issue contested. Why mix the atrocities committed by people from the West with the religion? Isn't that more due to POWER and greed of these people? Power corrupts regardless of religion or no religion.

Indo-China war was started by china to capture the military focal points of 3,225km long Himalayas border
(Aksai Chin and Arunachal Pradesh) to prevent further threats. It is subjective to say whether starting a
war is right or wrong. It just means loss of innocent lives who is at the wrong time,place and era.

Some people says that Chinese army marched into Tibet in July, 1949 and later forced the Tibetan delegation to sign the Seventeen-Point Agreement.

Nothing meaningful will come out engaging this endless debate. Perhaps, email isn't the right platform to
express your displeasure of the West.

Cheong Foong Soon (Singapore)

Dear Yong Leong,

warm greetings from Singapore to Paris  🙂

with all respect, I think that your following comments 1 and 2 are quite irrelevant to the discussion. To me, Wang Yi has made it quite clear in the email that what he disapproves is the over-zealous "evangelistic" nature of some (not all) Christians.
Your concluding point seems to justify one "wrong" with another "wrong".   I don't know much about Tibet.. but what will that prove even if it is valid? It will only show that the Chinese goverment is not an angel. I don't see how that will be relevant to our original thread of discussion..

Lin Guo Chun (China)

I agree with Foong Soon's summary over Wang Yi's long article. It seems that Wang Yi wants to point out that the Christian, as a religion, has a history of using violence, which may show the possible trend of this
religion in conducting atrocities. And this is contradicting to the "TRUE LOVE" Christians are claiming. Actually Wangyi's this statement has already deviated a bit from the original topic, that is: the trueness of Bible stories.

As a religion, I think the role of today's Christian is totally different from what they were at Middle
Age. Middle age's religion serves more for the interests of governing classes. Today it serves to
salvage ordinary ppl's soul. It is nonsense to use what the Christians were at Middle Age to understand
today's Christian, which is similar to understand today's Germany by using the image of Germany at world
war II. So the fundamental thing is that the right things can go wrong if they are at wrong hands.

Wang Yi

Wow, GuoChun is so profound!  Still water runs deep ah:-)

With such bright thoughts shining from above, how could I express any further nonsense?

Tuck Koon, let’s make a reconciliation.  No bad feeling against any Christian here.  Just have told several history stories relevant to Christians during last sessions.

I am not anti-religion.  Actually I am firmly pro-government, and how can a pro-government person oppose religions?  If all its citizens are religious, a government won’t have any trouble with internal security and hence is able to exploit them “from ever and ever”:-)   (Of course I mean decent religions instead of those that encourage collective suicide)

Nevertheless, issues like Tibet problem, Indo-China skirmish in 1962, communism proliferation in Southeast Asia and China’s involvement in Korea War as well as in Vietnam War are very interesting topics in modern history and thus worth further clarification, since our always elite Yong Leong has raised them.  However, I’m afraid I am highly engaged with other commitments this week.  Let’s have a peaceful week then.

Enjoy the Labour Day.  “Workers of all Countries, unite!”

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